Sweden continues persecution of Christianity

[Rev9Volts]

actuwlly bitwys (sp?) except for haloween usa has no calvin. i know i grew up in a calvin famly and baptist, methodist etc are calvin. heck 95 % of presbyterians ain't calvin....



he popularized halloween- the day before all saint's day and all souls day on the 1 and 2. i celebrate all 3. and will do a thread first chance...

[bitwhys]

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heck 95 % of presbyterians ain't calvin

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OMG



where do you think Knox got his ideas from?

[bitwhys]

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Could maybe the desire for excess have something to do with living in a country where consumerism, to excess, is the ultimate goal?

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consumerism is the passion. economic growth is the necessity (its in the numbers). if everyone stopped at what they really needed the wheels of capitalism would grind to a screaming halt. North America (I'm including Canada) is bred for it.



sell sell sell



buy buy buy



show them terrorists and go shopping.

[DreamTone7]

NRK - "But then again maybe that's all the sex, drugs and violence are in America, things to be had, more of anything is perceived as good in this country."



Now methinks you're getting it. And the kids want what they've been exposed to...what they know about...what they see "their hero" (the one who the movie glorifies) doing or being. It's usually the one who's physically the toughest or the wildest, gets all the girls, can drink the most bear and still walk away, etc. Never the one who's kind-hearted, got his act together and is peaceful. That's "boring" (according to kids).

[Galmin]

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We've got more of it glorified in the media than any other western nation. "Glorified" is the key. The movie "Pulp Fiction" comes to mind. Oh yeah...TONS of good influences in there.

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[sarcasm]A question from us outside the US of A who have a totally different programming when it comes to media: What's "Pulp Fiction"?[/sarcasm]

[bitwhys]

heh



since we're talking about culture now, I'll mention I'm dying to know who came up with the term "cheques (sic) and balances" when referring to the federal system down there. that's got presupposition and predisposition written all over it and I very seriously doubt it was "coined" by one of the founding fathers. they were WAY more eloquent than that.

[bitwhys]

btw, i LOVE the druid origions of halloween. helping the recently departed through the gate to the next world on the new year. what a concept.

[NRKofOver]

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And the kids want what they've been exposed to...what they know about...what they see "their hero" (the one who the movie glorifies) doing or being.

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Well, this still isn't adequately explanatory.



My entire generation was exposed to violence and drugs and sex and we're not a lost, desperate generation. In fact, 90% of us are solid contributing members of society.



I won't lie, I'm an excessive guy, I love endorphin and adrenalin rushes. Sometimes that comes from river rafting or bungee jumping or jet skiing or trips to Vegas. Sometimes it comes from mind enhancing substances and sometimes it comes from sexual encounters, but all in all, none of that is negatively affecting me because I'm an informed educated person. I know what drugs are doing to me when they go in my body. I know the responsibility that comes with sex, to both myself and any partners I choose to be with, I understand accountability for my actions because I'm educated. And I would say that's the case for 100% of my friends.



But I'm wondering if I would have had a kid at 19 years old if my education would have been solid then rather than taking a lot of personal initiative to learn by myself the responsibility aspect of risky behavior. My parents were like you DT, sex is a moral issue, where the only answer is wait til marriage. That was unrealistic for me because I really liked sex as a kid and wasn't going to be getting married to get it. So I was promiscious, I was unsafe and I feel fortunate that the only 'problem' was having a child (it turns out to be the most wonderful mistake I've ever made in my life). I had biological sex education and that was it. I wasn't told about the emotional aspects of sex and sexuality. I wasn't told about responsibility for one's actions because it was simply a matter of biology, if you want a baby this is how it's done. I had to learn through trial and error. Not a great idea when you're talking about something as important as sex. My parents believed that sex was moral, I didn't then and I still don't now, so I believe that such an approach was actually damaging to myself and society by leaving me in a state of ignorance without any concept of limited behavior due to that ignorance. That's why I'm strongly for comprehensive education for everyone. Otherwise some will get left behind and make poor decisions simply because they don't have the knowledge to do anthing else.

My music for the disenchanted masses

[DreamTone7]

NRK - "My entire generation was exposed to violence and drugs and sex and we're not a lost, desperate generation. In fact, 90% of us are solid contributing members of society."



LOL! As compared with?



I'm not sure exactly what generation you're from, but by our talks I'd have to say Generation X. (I'm a Baby-Boomer.) I'd say both our generations, by and large, are quite lost. It's not an easy thing to see when one learns to be comfortable with where they're at. We've already been discussing some of the issues that make us "lost". Teenage pregnancy and suicide rates, obsession with taking things to the extreme or in excess, violence, materialism, divorce and devaluation of the family are just a few. I've also noticed that each generation gets a little worse (or "more lost"). We've just learned (on the whole) to be satisfied with being lost.





I've gotta run...more on all this later.

Melody and Instruments for the soul...

[DreamTone7]

NRK - "I won't lie, I'm an excessive guy, I love endorphin and adrenalin rushes. Sometimes that comes from river rafting or bungee jumping or jet skiing or trips to Vegas. Sometimes it comes from mind enhancing substances and sometimes it comes from sexual encounters, but all in all, none of that is negatively affecting me because I'm an informed educated person. I know what drugs are doing to me when they go in my body. I know the responsibility that comes with sex, to both myself and any partners I choose to be with, I understand accountability for my actions because I'm educated. And I would say that's the case for 100% of my friends."



The message with excessiveness is "give in to your desires...if it feels good, it is good, and do it more often". In my opinion, that attitude can be self-destructive in many different ways.



As far as being educated goes, I've said it before that the person who thinks they have all the answers is the person who's going to make the biggest mistakes, and the ones that have the greatest negative impact on those around them. Those that understand that they will never know everything are more open to learning and aren't so set in their ways (based on their limited education) that they can't change for the better. Being educated has become the excuse for not listening to anybody else. (It started with the Baby-Boomers and got worse with Generation X.) Drugs can't effect your decision making ability because you know what they can do? That's like saying you can't get drunk because you know drinking alcohol can make you drunk. And the truth is that NOBODY knows the full effects of all that we think and do. But it's good to understand accountability...even for those things that you don't know (yet) that you've been responsible for making happen.





NRK - "That was unrealistic for me because I really liked sex as a kid..."



Personal question, if you don't mind. How were you first exposed to sex, and what got you interested in it as a kid? (If you can remember.)





NRK - "I wasn't told about the emotional aspects of sex and sexuality."



One of the interesting things about having sex with only one person is the kind of emotional bond it can create...much stronger than if had with multiple partners. It's something that is shared between two, and only two...no others. This bond can strengthen a marriage, and make it something really special. No...I failed at this. (I have not always been a Christian.) But I know many people that have not failed at it, and believe, completely, about what they have said about it. I feel it to be true. It's part of what makes a marriage special if you save yourself for it, but it gets diluted with each additional partner you have. That, in my opinion, is quite an important emotional aspect that many would seek to deny...rather than face the fact that they "messed up".



One of the problems with an "excessive" society is that it tends to promote trading away something special for something more often and easily attainable yet mediocre. It's an opt for quantity at the expense of quality...and it exists at many levels of our society here.



NRK - "My parents believed that sex was moral, I didn't then and I still don't now, so I believe that such an approach was actually damaging to myself and society by leaving me in a state of ignorance without any concept of limited behavior due to that ignorance."



Do you think it's possible that your choice to have sex as a kid influenced your decision, at all, that it wasn't a moral issue?





NRK - "That's why I'm strongly for comprehensive education for everyone."



I don't disagree...though I think we may disagree as to who it should be that is providing that education...and at what time in the childrens life it is best provided.

[DreamTone7]

bitwhys - "turns out the Rainbow Society is skulking around and gave their "some people don't like homosexuals. these people are call homophobes" talk to her daughter.



talk about timing.



grade 6."





I think it's sad. They're targeting kids before they've even reached puberty.

Melody and Instruments for the soul...

[NRKofOver]

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"give in to your desires...if it feels good, it is good, and do it more often"

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I can see where this would lead to addiction or perpetually negative behavior. For me, the point of excessiveness is breaking up the mundane, pushing things for the chemical high that happens in the brain, but again, because I'm educated I know that if that occurs too often it takes more and more extreme behavior to create the same feeling, so for me it's an occassional activity for sheer fun.



As far as sex goes, I saw a girl's boob, I got an erection, I liked my erection, I touched my erection and was physically and mentally thrilled at the feeling. It didn't feel bad or wrong or anything other than great. I began having sex with others at 13, even before I had pubic hair, but I loved the feeling and wanted more.



I wasn't even consciously aware that I liked boys more than girls at that time, just anyone who was interested was good enough for me.



But interestingly, except in my youth, I've never been promiscious, I enjoy relationships, I prefer one person at a time with a commitment to monogamy. And I wouldn't call that a moral belief, it is simply a preference for my relationships. I don't think that anyone who can have an open relationship is somehow morally less than I, it is simply their relationship preference, that's why sex isn't moral to me.

My music for the disenchanted masses

[DreamTone7]

Thank you for being honest and open. What you have said confirms a few things I've long believed.

[NRKofOver]

Well now you've piqued my interest. What deductions did you arrive at from that very small glimpse into my childhood?

My music for the disenchanted masses

[DreamTone7]

I used to have long hair, and a homosexual hair-dresser who cut it for me. He was what you'd call "flaming"...orange hair and all. Not much by today's standards, but this was over 20 years ago. Interesting since it's probably the only situation in which I'd ever find out about the private (sexual) lives of homosexuals (other than on a message board). Having your hair cut (and being concerned with the way it looks) makes you something of a captive audience...he'd sometimes tell me things...I'd listen, in much the same way people who come across a car-wreck just have to look. He never went into great detail (thank God), but one thing he mentioned that I never forgot was when the question of bi-sexuals came up. He just laughed and said, "There's no such thing...a bi-sexual is just a homosexual who's fooling around." He also got "started" at the age of 13...a bit young, if memory serves.



These stories (his and yours) lead me to believe that many homosexuals have a sex-drive that kicks in earlier than usual...this, in addition to it not being gender-specific (in spite of the fact that "homo" means "man"). I draw this conclusion in part because I, as a hetero man, know that I could not physically "function" with another man...if you understand what I mean. So, a homosexuals sex-drive might then be described then as starting in earlier (in general), and as not being gender specific. Or might it? "Not being gender specific" may be a result of something else.



The whole "if it feels good, do it", with the subsequent implication of "don't bother to question if it's right or wrong", is also very strongly implied in your story (towards the end). There appears to me to be a connection with being homosexual and being overly susceptable to this philosophy. (By character...not necessarily conciously.)



So, if a man has an early sex-drive and a tendancy to want to do whatever feels good regardless of anything else, is this what makes his sex-drive not gender specific?



Methinks there's one more possible factor.



Exposure to visual stimulus certainly had an effect on your discovery (at a relatively early age, I might add) of your sexuality. The question that remains is, "Would your sexual 'attitude' towards members of the same sex still be present if you had not been exposed to such strong sexual stimulus at an early age." Or, in other words, is the sexual stimulus at an early age (coupled with the early sex-drive) responsible for your sex-drive being not gender-specific? I've heard that many homosexuals start out as being molested when very young boys, and that the rate of homosexuality is much higher in molested boys than un-molested...so that would lend at least some creedence to this theory.



Of course, this could all be hogwash. But it is clear to me that the visual stimulus of a "boob" certainly had an effect on your sexual developement, and on your subsequent development as a teenager as a result. Such is what I would hope to avoid for my children. It's been my experience that (in both hetero men and women) that sex at too early an age results in sex becoming an unusually large percentage of what the relationship revolves around. This is not healthy for a relationship...especially in the long-run. People grow old together and find they have much less to live for concerning each other.