An Alternate View of Yesterday's "Victory"

debbie mannas · Joined: 30 Sep 2002 Posts: 1352

I wasnt "conditioned" to believe anything..., especially pro or anti-US or pro or Anti-Uk or anything. My opinions are my own because I care enough to see beyond the hype. I'm not a US citizen, nor am I a Muslim, and neither India nor HK is involved in this conflict. I see what I see without being feed BS by the media and government till I'm so brainwashed if they tell me the sky is green I'll believe it (or agree, which is EVEN WORSE, if I do not believe it!!!).

People in the US apparently don't get objective news, and are lied to by their government who has been bought many times over by big corporations. So has the media. Now THATS conditioning.

Typical of you not to see how YOU fit in with what Phil said.

In all of this, remember what you are defending because your govt has justified it:

1. an unjustified invasion

2. the use of known carcinogens and toxins as weapons

3. the destruction of thousands of years of artifacts under the watch of government which has made its priorities very clear.

4. the greed of big corporations.

5. chaos in the middle-east as bush and his gang of thieves will likely start another war.

What am I saying?

1. That leaders have a responsibility to be honourable and just. Ever heard the term "noblesse oblige"?

2. That if you cannot prove beyond a doubt the safety of equipment you have no business using it.

3. That violence is no excuse for more violence.

And to quote Ron,

"A principle of US law is that if the basis is something is false, than the rest will also be incorrect. A corollary legal principle is if someone gives false testimony on point A, when the witness goes on to give an observation on point B the false testimony of point A carries over, nullifying both testimonies."

I'd say that this applies to your government. In Spades. Colin Powell's "proof" against Iraq was proven to be fabricated. How credible is anything else they say?

Anyway, have a Happy Easter. Believe what you want. The current path your govt is taking is going to lead to thousands more deaths, disrupted lives, poverty and sickness. AND they've done the fundamental islamists a BIG BIG favour by justifiying their cause.

Edited by: debbie mannas at: 4/20/03 7:26:39 am

Seismic Anamoly · Joined: 22 Aug 2002 Posts: 3039

Quote:
Believe what you want.

Hey...THANX!

I Will.

LarreeMP3 · Joined: 12 Apr 2002 Posts: 1935

...is going to lead to the elimination of our enemies...and that is a very good thing. Any organization or country that backs an organization that would gladly kill THOUSANDS of American and international civilians, and that wants to see our way of life destroyed, is fair game. 9/11 was a declaration of war, and we are more than ready to play hardball. President Bush says that we are gonna kick anyone's ass who backs terrorists. I support that 100%. Go Bush. Go America! Go to hell terrorists! we are gonna send you there! "Nowhere to run to baby, nowhere to hide!"

Seismic Anamoly · Joined: 22 Aug 2002 Posts: 3039

Quote:
....they've done the fundamental islamists a BIG BIG favour by justifiying their cause.

So, it's now "justified" to smash into or bomb a building anywhere in the US and take out 10,000 or so innocent civilians for THE CAUSE, but let one JDAM go off target while ridding the world of Terrorism and Terrorist Sponsoring Fascists (OUR cause; 9/11 justified it) and kill 1 civilian, and we should all be tried as War Criminals. Hmmmmmm....

Edited by: Seismic Anamoly at: 4/22/03 2:35:16 pm

debbie mannas · Joined: 30 Sep 2002 Posts: 1352

First WMDs,

Then Liberation

now 9/11???

Gah.

NO KILLING IS JUSTIFIED. Whether in revenge or not.

But just as Bush seeks any excuse to justify his acts of aggression, so will the terrorists play the same tit for tat game, in a never ending cycle of violence. And the terrorists will now have a ton more people signing up for their cause, even once moderate Muslims. If you don't think that's what Bush's policies are doing, well then...

Seismic Anamoly · Joined: 22 Aug 2002 Posts: 3039

Life's a Bitch, ain't it?

Edited by: Seismic Anamoly at: 4/22/03 4:32:08 pm

DreamTone7 · Joined: 20 Sep 2002 Posts: 2571

So Debbie, the next time I see someone point a gun at you with the intent to kill, you want me to let him do it? If the ONLY way to stop him is to shoot him first? Is this what you are saying???

debbie mannas · Joined: 30 Sep 2002 Posts: 1352

hahahahahahahahaha

Believe me, if the US really believed Iraq could do any real damage them they wouldnt have gone near em. Look at how they're treading N. Korea.

:aua

DreamTone7 · Joined: 20 Sep 2002 Posts: 2571

I was referring to your quote:

NO KILLING IS JUSTIFIED. Whether in revenge or not.

My point is that there ARE times when killing IS justified, and war is a necessity.....in my opinion, of course.

So, are you going to answer my questions in the previous post?

Seismic Anamoly · Joined: 22 Aug 2002 Posts: 3039

Probably not, DT. They are "Propaganda" questions.

debbie mannas · Joined: 30 Sep 2002 Posts: 1352

to defend your self from someone who has a gun out need not result in the death of that person. If you have a gun, I presume you can use it, and you can jolly well aim to disarm him.

But I dont understand why you or he would carry a gun in the first place. You don't see this sort of gun culture prevalent in most other places in the world.

It's attitudes like yours that likely make the US gun death and injury statistics the highest in the world. Such a simple thing. Somebody pulls a gun on you, you pull out a gun and kill him.

However, if you don't see a gun, and he's just walking towards you with a menacing look on his face, would you still pull out a gun and shoot him?

So lets talk Iraq now. It has not been proven that they had a gun pointed towards the US no matter how how many lies bush and gang try to fabricate. The world is NOT convinced the war was in self defence.

And people were killed. Not disarmed or injured, Killed.

DreamTone7 · Joined: 20 Sep 2002 Posts: 2571

No, it is not YET proven that they had a gun pointed towards the US....but they certainly did towards others, and I don't consider their lives to be less important than mine in the grand sceme of things. It is that exact type of thinking, Debbie, that allowed Hitler to go as far as he did before being stopped.

I wouldn't shoot someone for giving me a dirty look, but if he pulled a gun on me....yes, you better believe I would. No hesitation. And if I thought that he would continue to point a gun at me and shoot if I only put a bullet in his leg (which would make sense if he was stupid enough to point a gun at me, or anyone else, in the first place), then I'd shoot to kill. You bet. It's attitudes like yours that allow proven killers to go on killing again and again. Wishfull thinking will not make these threats to the lives of people (either my own or that of others) go away. As I have said, killing is sometimes necessary. This is, however, different from murder......so don't even try and go there. And as long as there are people like this running around unchecked, I'll continue to carry a gun. I'm speaking metaphorically here now.....I personally don't own a gun. But if the situation on the streets approached the chaos that existed in the country of Iraq (or others like it), I would certainly go out and buy one. I believe in protecting the lives of myself and my family.

If we could all be reasonable and civilized, there would be no need for guns or war. As long as there are people like Saddam and his ilk in the world, there will be a need.

Seismic Anamoly · Joined: 22 Aug 2002 Posts: 3039

Quote:
...that allowed Hitler to go as far as he did before being stopped.

Uh-Oh....you said the "H" word...you'll probably be banned or censured now...

Give it up, DT...she already knows it all, and will graciously be the first one to tell you so.

Right.

debbie mannas · Joined: 30 Sep 2002 Posts: 1352

archive.abcnews.go.com/se...llers.html

“In most western countries, that idea of anticipating that you may shoot another person is completely foreign,” says Rebecca Peters, an Australian expert on gun violence and a visiting Soros Senior Justice Fellow at the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research.

“In the United States, they are somehow comfortable with the idea that they may shoot someone.

*******************

Sorry but the idea of violence is totally abhorrent to me. Perhaps thats why some societies are so much safer than others.

The US gave people like saddam and osama their wings. And when you talk of Hitler, I can think of another likely candidate besides saddam.

DreamTone7 · Joined: 20 Sep 2002 Posts: 2571

I am actually a very peaceful, non-violent man myself. But to ignore something to the point of denial because I "abhored" it would be extremely short sighted. Evil ignored does not go away.....history has proven this, time and again. (And we know what is said about people who ignore history......"....they will be doomed to repeat it.") Evil must be stopped. The only gripe I have with the US going into Iraq is that they should have taken Saddam out the first time back in '91. Then none of this would be necessary. But, as they say, hindsight is always 20/20.